This Does Not Look Good

[Chameleon]

This is the lawsuit brought by DN and NagraStar brought against Phillip Allison for providing illegal unathorized reception of DN signals.

Please also read the judgement and then you will understand why some sites are no longer operating.

[CASPER7]

this is some heavy stuff.....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Raptors]

Wow this is interesting,

so much for the "I am just testing" excuse. ;)

[Ezz1r]

What would the founding fathers have done?

Kiss my lilly WHITE :ass:


:fIngGer:

[BBTruckin]

Soo does that mean we`re done? We are down permenantly now I guess!

[Boss302]

WOW thats an eye opener , thanks for the post Cham :sad:

[Tragik]

danggg very good read, thanks cham

[Fallen Angel]

I still think we have nothing to worry about when it comes to getting new files...Even for Nagra 3...This guy lived about 70 miles from me...He was in the US...I think thats the whole problem with this...Most, if not all the coders work overseas...Thats why we don't see files until later on at night...when it's morning over there...I'm not sure how he got caught, or what other Forums he was uploading to either...But that could explain why some are down now...

I also believe that the overseas coders are either waiting for cards to work on, or may already have the solution to N3...That's gonna be a waiting game....But in my opinion, if anyone in the USA is smart enough to code and get it to work, and dumb enough to upload it to forums, they kinda deserve to be caught...I would have kept it between myself and a few close friends...Like everyone on this forum...LOL...Just kidding...I would have emailed it to a few close friends and myself, and kept it quiet...

Just my thoughts...


FA

[skyview]

not sure why you think the coders are "overseas" as none of the ones i know are,,there all in canada and US,yes im sure they send the final script to a overseas receiver company per say

most coders only fix the map calls ect.. they dont do the final compile of the bins,thats up to the source,coders get paid to fix the files,but do not have the source code or full script so to say,that stays with the top dogs only

if a coder got mad at the company he could do alot of damage if he had the source,thats why we dont see that,only the top dogs have final say on files...

they send a email or message with info on how to patch the files,they do not do it themselves

but 8 outa 10 coders i know are here in canada and US ;)

this is what i gather from lots of coder forums,im sure a few may be outa the country,but none a the ones i know :rolleyes:

[silly87]

Here is the 3rd missing document in this judgement.

[fernvick]

Good read!!

[fullinfusion]

well that explains why TC is out

[Tragik]

lol that answers a lot of unanswered questions...lol I can see the rumors are going to fly now though, everyone and their momma gonna talk about "I read that n3 is cracked, where's the file" blah blah, in my personal opinion I think he f'd up with the cs crowd, especially since their little "merger", and they got pissy (so to say) but that's my opinion lol

[pameladelafield]

not sure why you think the coders are "overseas" as none of the ones i know are,,there all in canada and US,yes im sure they send the final script to a overseas receiver company per say

most coders only fix the map calls ect.. they dont do the final compile of the bins,thats up to the source,coders get paid to fix the files,but do not have the source code or full script so to say,that stays with the top dogs only

if a coder got mad at the company he could do alot of damage if he had the source,thats why we dont see that,only the top dogs have final say on files...

they send a email or message with info on how to patch the files,they do not do it themselves

but 8 outa 10 coders i know are here in canada and US ;)

this is what i gather from lots of coder forums,im sure a few may be outa the country,but none a the ones i know :rolleyes:

I think when you say "Coders", you are describing hobbyist who write code for cards like Atmega, not the people paid by FTA receivers (secretly) to write bins for their receivers. With the FBI having no restrictions to read email going in and out of the U.S., a person and the company he is sending email to would have to be crazy to do it that way. The man in the lawsuit was obviously being paid and nuts to live in North America.

[floder2]

I know for sure that CW receivers are done overseas.........................

[Chameleon]

Interesting that the third document claims the defendant was in possession of the Nagra 3 hack. Wonder if it's true or more of the b.s. that he was known to spew...

[black widow]

lol that answers a lot of unanswered questions...lol I can see the rumors are going to fly now though, everyone and their momma gonna talk about "I read that n3 is cracked, where's the file" blah blah,

too late those started already... get at least 2 a day asking that.

[SatChef]

There has certainly been a lot of buzz to the same, floating around for the last few days..... what stage where they all at....will this set things back....or will we see a renewed underground approach. The really wierd thing is postings that would appear to originate from them on sites....Nic script ~ " Busted Coder- Beware! " , either some Mod/Admin having fun, or someone is really taking some big chances. The story will continue......

[fullinfusion]

I still think we have nothing to worry about when it comes to getting new files...Even for Nagra 3...This guy lived about 70 miles from me...He was in the US...I think thats the whole problem with this...Most, if not all the coders work overseas...Thats why we don't see files until later on at night...when it's morning over there...I'm not sure how he got caught, or what other Forums he was uploading to either...But that could explain why some are down now...

I also believe that the overseas coders are either waiting for cards to work on, or may already have the solution to N3...That's gonna be a waiting game....But in my opinion, if anyone in the USA is smart enough to code and get it to work, and dumb enough to upload it to forums, they kinda deserve to be caught...I would have kept it between myself and a few close friends...Like everyone on this forum...LOL...Just kidding...I would have emailed it to a few close friends and myself, and kept it quiet...

Just my thoughts...


FA
Ok, so since you say most of the coders work overseas than why hasn't Team Captain pushed out there bins lately even if it was just one single guy pumping out bins for us that got busted?
Surely there was more than one guy working and testing bins for the rest of us Captian users to load up!
:floppy:

[neo_waxworks]

I think when you say "Coders", you are describing hobbyist who write code for cards like Atmega, not the people paid by FTA receivers (secretly) to write bins for their receivers. With the FBI having no restrictions to read email going in and out of the U.S., a person and the company he is sending email to would have to be crazy to do it that way. The man in the lawsuit was obviously being paid and nuts to live in North America.


ummm.. all the coders I am aware of (except possibly Captive works and even then I have suspicions) are located in the US and Canada...I do not know them personally, but I know they are definitely not overseas (Except for vahid[author of vplug])

the coders have to have access to the signal in order to create the fixes, otherwise it would take a month of trial and error till they got the timing right...

[silly87]

The case number is - 8:09-cv-00529

Quote:
U.S. District Court
Middle District of Florida (Tampa)
CIVIL DOCKET FOR CASE #: 8:09-cv-00529-RAL-MAP
Dish Network L.L.C. et al v. Allison
Assigned to: Judge Richard A. Lazzara
Referred to: Magistrate Judge Mark A. Pizzo
Cause: 47:0605 Federal Communications Act
Date Filed: 03/13/2009
Date Terminated: 04/09/2009
Jury Demand: None
Nature of Suit: 490 Cable/Satellite TV
Jurisdiction: Federal Question
Plaintiff
Dish Network L.L.C.
a Colorado Limited Liability Company represented by James A. Boatman , Jr.
The Boatman Law Firm, PA
Suite 340
1415 Panther Ln
Naples , FL 34109
xxxxxxxxxxxx
Fax: xxxxxxxxxxxx
Email: [EMAIL="xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx[/EMAIL]
LEAD ATTORNEY
ATTORNEY TO BE NOTICED
Plaintiff
Echostar Technologies, L.L.C.
a Texas Limited Liability Company represented by James A. Boatman , Jr.
(See above for address)
LEAD ATTORNEY
ATTORNEY TO BE NOTICED
Plaintiff
Nagrastar L.L.C.
a Colorado Limited Liability Company represented by James A. Boatman , Jr.
(See above for address)
LEAD ATTORNEY
ATTORNEY TO BE NOTICED

V.
Defendant
Phillip Allison
==================================

Well its bad enough when they get you but now his home address and even pictures of his place and the guys are starting to show on the net. This is not your Grandpa's homeworld any more...Gee even saw some stuff on MySpace but thats the world of Pirates..
This investigation started in Late January of 2008... about the same time f2fta and the other some other sites suddenly vanished - same time some other raids took place during that period. Allison was making files for coolsats until then and then no more files for the cs 4000. Now a 3rd party is attemping to do some work for coolsat with little success.
The coder who was making the files for Captain, Coolsat & Viewsat became known to everyone... Phillip Allison of Seminole, Florida... and in the court documents he has admitted making and selling the bin files to Freetech aka Coolsat and Viewtech aka Viewsat.
Echostar needed to prove a connection between the receiver makers and the pirate bin files and they have so its all downhill for Freetech & Viewrech from this point on. They will be making whatever settlement arrangements they can work out and they will "Disappear" maybe. No way to get out when somebody WITH docs and more gives you up.
They also have proof this guy was sending the files to ###########.com and f2fta.com with instructions to post them. HashHu comes in here as a player as well thats why they are in such a mess. Anybody that can be tied to this guy is done for in the end because he has given up everyone lock ,stock and barrel with evidenance to boot. Its reported 10 sites are in play here and it could get bigger before the summer is over for 2009.
The current documents don't show any other websites other than whats listed but several more are being "Looked" at from his list of distributors" its being told now. But DISH is keeping ALL of their investigations secret and we may find out some more names as time goes on.
The only surprise in the documents was that Allison stated in a communication that they had a software method to make Viewsat receivers work on Nagra's new system - it is not indicated if this was the add-on dongle for IKS or the "Card" fix but its been confirmed now this guy did have the hack for BOTH Methods and working. Don't ask thats all we will say for now. Thats all "THEY" can say for now. What the FTA people do now with this is yet to be seen but DISH has been secretly "Sending" very threatening letters to all involved that they are "Watching & Monitoring" and have moles in high places to futher pursue those that try to compromise their new access N3 cards anymore. So much for the Nagra3 fix but seems DISH may not take a set back and play approach from now on like it did with N2 and FTA. Shades of ####### for the "old ones" out there in the hobby.
The latest information now available that a Neosat/K-Box coder has also been arrested - which makes sense as there is a connection to Coolsat and this investigation has been on-going for more than a year - they are trying to cut a deal with him for more info to get bigger fish here or they will file and go public with full court criminal charges not civil this time.
Obviously JJ Gee offered this "Allison" and this "GUY" a walk if he names everyone and everything else. They could say "I posted" the files on various websites but instead they said they sent files to two websites in particular and told the ops to post them; Allison also says Freetech & Viewtech paid him for the files... he just nailed everybody here involved up and down the food chain. And thats just what they "Show" and "Tell" in the court docs. Eelieve us there is more done in the noutside and backrooms and in discovery meetings than will ever be shown in the docs or court records.
Many court documents are available all over the place from Flordia to Los Angeles, and some have been sealed at this point but it they have been done "sealed temporarily" it means there's more bad things to come out and they don't want us "Pirates" out in the hobby to know what it is yet.
This "Current" investigation started in January of 2008 and many can guess these rocks had no clues they were on to them otherwise there computers and hardware would have been blank when they got there. Remember old Blacklist...he's a dead bird now it seems..... Just before they got Allison they got Blacklist's computer too. So what type of security or arrogance was in this bunch of guys anyway.... APPEARS NONE!
So now this court case stuff was about a month ago and has viewsat very unsure about the release of their stand alone N3 fix now after N3 goes down totally VERY VERY SOON! Sonic view on the other hand is going with IKS and will be releasing a new IKS unit shortly the UG is preparing for. Its told though FTA types,someone or ones,do have both methods working.
So who has the peeled "Onion" first this time and will they let or give everyone a "taste" or will it be for paying UG types only from now on...believe me this is in discussion by those that see some dollars to be made here. This ain't no DTV Period 4/5/6 card here we are talking about. Its still a dish card much more secure but to a few hackers still a piece of "dodo" and can be and is hacked. We will say this though...most everyone dedicated to this hobby and doing it with dish hardware WILL have TV from dish and its not going to have to be a SUB....By Xmas Dish will wish they had kept the millions they spent on N3 and just "Borrowed" the period 4/5/6 card from #######...to late Echostar N3 days have been numbered from the moment you stayed with the same ole same ole same ole....even smart guys get a bit to conceited over time...yeah we know Pirates do to...but thats what they do and with the INTERNET priates have each other ALL over the world. We assure all theres more of us then there will ever be of "Them" be it Dish or DTV...now we will see who is afraid to play and who isn't....but the public ones will always be able to be found...those are the ones that are a threat to all.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
--------------------------------
$500,000 judgement against FTA programmer // 2009-05-04
There was lawsuit brought by DN and NagraStar against Phillip Allison aka thebroken for providing illegal unauthorized reception of DN signals, writing software codes for FTA receivers to de scramble #######work system.
It was alleged that software written by Phillip Allison was publicly distributed on sites including: ###########.com, #####.com, al7bar.tk and hashhu.com among others.
The judgment includes $500,000 along with various restrictions against Mr. Allison.
---------------------------------------------------------
####### brags about their security // 2009-04-26
Cable TV theft is a problem that costs the industry $6 billion a year in the US. As for satelite theft, representatives from ####### said they have defeated piracey by impleting bullet proof smart card technology.
There are billions of reasons why cable television theft is a yearly problem.
"In the cable industry nationally, it's about $6 billion annually," said Elaine Lunkes, director of community and commercial development for Comcast Cable. "Cable theft is a crime under state and federal law."
Lunkes did not want to discuss the specific ways individuals can illegally access cable. She did say, however, that customers' services can be affected through signal leakage, which can affect the quality of the picture.
Monitors are continuously in the field to check and make sure the thefts don't happen and to quickly fix problems if they do occur, Lunkes said.
"Comcast is diligent about being continually focused on cable theft," she said.
It wasn't a cable theft, but an Avon Park man was recently arrested on warrants alleging that he stole approximately $7,827.59 worth of services from ####### between Aug. 26, 2006 and Aug. 28, 2007.
Sergio Soto, 36, of 2417 North Dunwoodie Road, Avon Park, was charged with grand theft of $300 or more but less than $5,000, fraudulently intercepting communications and fraudulently obtaining property of $300 or more.
Soto reportedly used a ####### account that was registered to another customer. At the time, he was working for Mastec, a subcontractor used to install and service ####### systems.
The arrest may have come in the last two weeks, but the alleged crime is almost two years old. Sgt. Brian Kramer, with the Highlands County Sheriff's Office, said he has not had any complaints of cable or satellite signal theft in the past few months.
"I know it happens, and there's some way of obtaining some sort of a box that intercepts the codes," Kramer said.
Robert Mercer, with #######'s communications department, said the company has "defeated the pirates" through the use of "bulletproof smart card technology" and legal action.
"What really ended the scourge of piracy was our development of more advanced access card technology that effectively locked out the hackers, i.e., they couldn't crack the code," Mercer said.
The smart card, or access card, is identical in shape and size to a credit card. It is inserted into the set-top box and enables the subscriber's receiver to unscramble signals and allow the customer to view the programming offered in their subscription package, according to Mercer.
Each card has an identifying number and an embedded microprocessor, or computer chip, which controls the decryption process.
"That chip in the card was what the hackers were illegally modifying in the bad old days," Mercer said.
One such hacker was O.J. Simpson. In 2005, a U.S. District Judge in the southern district of Florida ordered the former NFL star to pay ####### $25,000 in damages, plus attorneys' fees and cost for stealing ####### programming, according to a report on xxx.businesswire.com (http://www.businesswire.com).
####### filed a civil lawsuit against Simpson following a 2001 raid on his Miami home, where two illegal devices, called bootloaders, were seized. Simpson said he did not have a legitimate account and the devices were designed to steal programming, the report stated.
The device enabled the access card to loop around some of the circuitry that was damaged in an electronic counter measure, according to Mercer.
"That was another way we discouraged users of these illegally modified cards; we would frequently send codes over the satellite data stream that instructed the card to destroy itself," Mercer said.

[midale]

Seems to me here in Canada that there is no mention of N3 in these docs so it is only speculation that he was prosecuted for N3 maybe this is the round up being completed for N2 Hacks.And if it is N# hack then we Know it is Done and seems to me it would be in the safe hands of some trusted keeper of the key?Am i missing something here?

[DaNnY25]

nos jodimos aora si q no abra mas DN :eek:

[neo_waxworks]

Seems to me here in Canada that there is no mention of N3 in these docs so it is only speculation that he was prosecuted for N3 maybe this is the round up being completed for N2 Hacks.And if it is N# hack then we Know it is Done and seems to me it would be in the safe hands of some trusted keeper of the key?Am i missing something here?

doesn't matter if n3 is mentioned.. echostar AND kludeuski are both listed... so ANY version of nagravision is included...

[thegman69]

How do these "coders" not have a legal fund set aside to hire top notch legal teams? 2/3 of the case could have be shelved:

1) The code, albeit that it does circumvent the signal, does have commercial value and value to the public at larger. Dish, Nagra, etc. rely on "coders" to tighten their sercurity as they cannot do it alone. Without the coder community, their entire offering would be subject quality and security control.

2) While these companies offer "proprietary" digital signals, they do not own the air it travels through. There are numerous cases for ham, CB, mobile phone, etc. where defendants intercepted these signals (encrypted and otherwise) in which content was the "copyright" of the parties involved. These cases where dismissed for various reasons in relation to the "free air".

3) The providers have a monopoly on the hardware. The Psystar (Apple v Psystar) case is closely being watched because it does raise many valid legal claims, and then some pretty lame ones too. The biggest item to come from this case it the anticompetitve nature of Apple controlling what hardware it can and can't run on. There isn't a lot of difference between the person who install OS X on their Dell Netbook vs. someone who loads a BIN to a 3rd party IRD. Ok, a few differences but the OS X license agreement forbids it and even goes on to say it is illegal, even if you own a legitimate license.

There are more reasons to discuss but my point is that any good legal team would raise these merits and drag this out in to the public view. Hell, if I was up against a $500m judgement, I would want the public to know the cat and mouse tactics.

[neo_waxworks]

all that is irrelevent...
Dish/Bev and Kludelski OWN the encryption system used, ANY coder circumventing it is breaking the law because they have not givent them permission.. as for FTA, as soon as the maker releases the source to a coder that creates firmware the circumvents the encryption, they become a party to legal prosectuion...
They as the maker have a responsibility to take messures to block such illegal use.. A good lawyer in court would eat them alive if they tried to say they don't...

[papiti]

all that is irrelevent...
Dish/Bev and Kludelski OWN the encryption system used, ANY coder circumventing it is breaking the law because they have not givent them permission.. as for FTA, as soon as the maker releases the source to a coder that creates firmware the circumvents the encryption, they become a party to legal prosectuion...
They as the maker have a responsibility to take measures to block such illegal use.. A good lawyer in court would eat them alive if they tried to say they don't...


NOT RELVANT?!?:eek: So, then we have to tell all the companies that make DVD burners that they are responsible for DVD Movie piracy. DUUUUDEEEE!!!!! Yes, and I know you are going to say that the sole purpose of having an FTA box is to steal satellite signal, well let me remind you that you are wrong and that there are a lot of people that do use the receivers to only obtain Free To Air television and also as digital signal converter boxes for the newly government inposed TV digital signal.

I understand were you are coming from, but, the law is the law. Until the law says that FTA boxes are illegal to produce, make , invent, or whatever you want to call it, you cannot be held responsible for whatever the person who buys it does with it. If someone kills somebody with an FTA receiver, the receivers company cannot be held responsible.

When FTA boxes become illegal, then the judicial system can take care of business. And let me remind you of something else, the law is not retroactive, so up until the time when the receivers are illegal, which I don't think its ever going to happen, you still can't touch those companies that built them. You can only prosecute them from the day they become illegal on.

Now, if there are people within a company, such as coolsat, just to mention a company, and they are encouraging people and/or coders to code encripted transmission from Charlie, etc., then let me point you another thing. The company itself is still not responsible for those actions, maybe responsible for having some dumb people get caught, but thats about it. The ones who are responsible are the persons themselves that are encouraging these actions. The company is not the one that is encouraging these actions, its some of their employees.

[twinfox]

6 billion Holy Cow!!!!! Way to go peeps.....

[neo_waxworks]

NOT RELVANT?!?:eek: So, then we have to tell all the companies that make DVD burners that they are responsible for DVD Movie piracy. DUUUUDEEEE!!!!! Yes, and I know you are going to say that the sole purpose of having an FTA box is to steal satellite signal, well let me remind you that you are wrong and that there are a lot of people that do use the receivers to only obtain Free To Air television and also as digital signal converter boxes for the newly government inposed TV digital signal.

I understand were you are coming from, but, the law is the law. Until the law says that FTA boxes are illegal to produce, make , invent, or whatever you want to call it, you cannot be held responsible for whatever the person who buys it does with it. If someone kills somebody with an FTA receiver, the receivers company cannot be held responsible.

When FTA boxes become illegal, then the judicial system can take care of business. And let me remind you of something else, the law is not retroactive, so up until the time when the receivers are illegal, which I don't think its ever going to happen, you still can't touch those companies that built them. You can only prosecute them from the day they become illegal on.

Now, if there are people within a company, such as coolsat, just to mention a company, and they are encouraging people and/or coders to code encripted transmission from Charlie, etc., then let me point you another thing. The company itself is still not responsible for those actions, maybe responsible for having some dumb people get caught, but thats about it. The ones who are responsible are the persons themselves that are encouraging these actions. The company is not the one that is encouraging these actions, its some of their employees.

yes not relevent...FTA makers KNOWINGLY release the source code to their firmware for one purpose.. Dvd burners do not...
As I siad the ONLY way FTA makers can get around it is to make them non flashable.....they can't claim innocence when they make them flashable and give the hacker/coder the source code to make illegal bins...that is the COMPANY, a COMPANY decision, not individuals...
You don't see M$ giving it's source away...

[papiti]

yes not relevent...FTA makers KNOWINGLY release the source code to their firmware for one purpose.. Dvd burners do not...
As I said the ONLY way FTA makers can get around it is to make them non flashable.....they can't claim innocence when they make them flashable and give the hacker/coder the source code to make illegal bins...that is the COMPANY, a COMPANY decision, not individuals...
You don't see M$ giving it's source away...

REALLY, DVD Burners have one purpose only, COPY and PLAY, and COPY anything that is. Also, FTA makers don't release the source code, some individuals within the company do that. It is not a COMPANY decision. You see, my neighbor has Cable TV and he has an OPEN Cable Box. Now how did he accomplish that, well, one of the company's employees did the job for him. Not going to get into detail because we all know how he does that, and if you don't know, well, just pay that employee some bucks, and he activates the box directly from the company's computer. So, is the company responsible, or is the empleyee the problem. THERE you go, after using some Brain matter, you figured it out. Yes, the employee, Individual, is the problem. So don't be saying that the FTA companies are responsible for some individuals that are marking the industry.

And, last but not least, all sat boxes, cable boxes, etc. have to be flashable, that's the only way that they can fix a problem with their firmware and tha'ts the only way they can upgrade their firmware.

So, try me one more time, again. Try to convince me. So far all you've been doing is trying to make people nervous about FTA.

[neo_waxworks]

ummm... dvd's are copy protected..last time I checked dvd burners do not circumvent that protection.. 3rd party software that has ZERO to do withthe makers of dvd burners does that...
as For FTA makers, if they have an employee that release confidential source code, it is the companies responsibility for not making sure the code was stored securely..

Honestly if you do not think a court would not laugh an FTA maker all the way to jail if they tired the "it wasn't us one of our employee's must have done it" excuse, they you are pretty naive... that holds absolutely zero legal significance, the counter argument would simply be, they are guilty thru negligence...

as to your cable analogy.. completely different situation.. the employee is only hurting his OWN company and if that company finds out the employee would definitely get canned and possibly sued to recoup loses BY the cable company...


also I am not trying to make people nervous about FTA, they should already BE that.. it is more troubling that you are trying to make them fdeel safe about it...

[papiti]

ummm... dvd's are copy protected..last time I checked dvd burners do not circumvent that protection.. 3rd party software that has ZERO to do withthe makers of dvd burners does that...
as For FTA makers, if they have an employee that release confidential source code, it is the companies responsibility for not making sure the code was stored securely..

Honestly if you do not think a court would not laugh an FTA maker all the way to jail if they tired the "it wasn't us one of our employee's must have done it" excuse, they you are pretty naive... that holds absolutely zero legal significance, the counter argument would simply be, they are guilty thru negligence...

as to your cable analogy.. completely different situation.. the employee is only hurting his OWN company and if that company finds out the employee would definitely get canned and possibly sued to recoup loses BY the cable company...


also I am not trying to make people nervous about FTA, they should already BE that.. it is more troubling that you are trying to make them fdeel safe about it...

So, you are saying, that flashable firmware, BIN's, or whatever you want to call them are NOT 3rd party software. DUDE, it's the same thing, DUHHH!!!!! And, yes, YOU said it, they would be guilty of being negligent, but that still does not say or prove that they are guilty of personally providing the firmware.

Cable analogy, completely different situation, REALLY!!!, cable dude hurting his own company, WELL, lets see, MMMMMM, ohh yeah, isn't that the same thing as releasing a firmware from the company I work with. Isn't that hurting your company TOO!!!!!

And, I'm NOT trying to make anyone feel safe about anything. But I am trying to protect all those people that realy do use and live with True Free To Air. You see, not everyone uses FTA Boxes for illegala activity and thats what we have to protect. :cool:

[neo_waxworks]

So, you are saying, that flashable firmware, BIN's, or whatever you want to call them are NOT 3rd party software. DUDE, it's the same thing, DUHHH!!!!! And, yes, YOU said it, they would be guilty of being negligent, but that still does not say or prove that they are guilty of personally providing the firmware.

Cable analogy, completely different situation, REALLY!!!, cable dude hurting his own company, WELL, lets see, MMMMMM, ohh yeah, isn't that the same thing as releasing a firmware from the company I work with. Isn't that hurting your company TOO!!!!!

And, I'm NOT trying to make anyone feel safe about anything. But I am trying to protect all those people that realy do use and live with True Free To Air. You see, not everyone uses FTA Boxes for illegala activity and thats what we have to protect. :cool:

again you are completely missing the point... BECAUSE Fta has the abilty to be hacked/ circumvent encryption the makers have a larger burden to make sure that they do NOT sell, release, have stolen, ANY firmware source code that can be used to do said things...
just be them, ahem.."Letting and employee steal it" they can be sued and found guilty of promoting piracy..does'nt matter who makes the bin, they did not control their own source and allowed it to happen...
adn to pile on, once an illegal bin was released, they did not take immediate steps to have said illegal bin's removed or the source code that was leaked destroyed..
They have that legal responsibility.. they can't just release it and say, oh well, not my problem..that's why you do not see them releasing the source to the public..

Oh and FTA's absolutely do not need to be flashable.. as new sats are added, you can manually add them iva the interface, so it is more than a bit disingenuous to claim otherwise...

[papiti]

again you are completely missing the point... BECAUSE Fta has the abilty to be hacked/ circumvent encryption the makers have a larger burden to make sure that they do NOT sell, release, have stolen, ANY firmware source code that can be used to do said things...
just be them, ahem.."Letting and employee steal it" they can be sued and found guilty of promoting piracy..does'nt matter who makes the bin, they did not control their own source and allowed it to happen...
adn to pile on, once an illegal bin was released, they did not take immediate steps to have said illegal bin's removed or the source code that was leaked destroyed..
They have that legal responsibility.. they can't just release it and say, oh well, not my problem..that's why you do not see them releasing the source to the public..

Oh and FTA's absolutely do not need to be flashable.. as new sats are added, you can manually add them iva the interface, so it is more than a bit disingenuous to claim otherwise...

We could go back and forth with this, and the truth is that FTA boxes are LEGAL. They can be guilty of maybe giving out a source code, but the use for that source code is debatable since they are not the ones that make the BIN's. Source codes are given to many within the company, again, maybe to fix some problems with the box itself, or maybe to upgrade to a new firmware the company releases, so still, they are not responsible.

And another thing, disingenuous, JA, JA, boxes DO need to be flashable. You see, technology is not perfect. Many times boxes need to get fixed. The way to fix a lot of modern technology is to Flashing their firmware. Even Plasma and LCD Tv's are flashable, not to obtainor steal a better signal, but to fix problems and buggs with their firmware, and I do have experience with this as I had to flash my LCD display because of a bug in the firmware. Yes you can make consumers add new sats and all the little numbers and details they have to put in everytime and upgrade to a sat or a new sat is included. But believe me, any company, would loose a lot of consumers everytime they had to go and put in their sats manually, because nowadays, its not efficient. Also, it is less costly and much easier for ANY company to be able to let its consumers flash their firmware.

And forget about their consumers, just imagine everytime there is a problem with a box, being any company, you know how long it would take for one of the repairman to repair a box without being able to flash new firmware. It would take them forever. OHHH, but whatever, just let them do it manually so it will take them forever to fix whatever they want to fix.:cool:

[Hydr0p0niCz]

i have to say...

6 months ago neo was trying to scare everyone away from IKS.. and now he's trying to scare everyone away from FTA... i just think neo, you have nothing better to do.. all your predictions have been far off......haha.. you told me the fbi would be knocking at my door for using the nfusion..... your statements hold no water.. you are just a conspiracy theorist... again.... we will see if the bull crap you write will every come true!! i would be willing to put my life savings on the fact that you are completely WRONG and full of it....


maybe you should get off these fta websites.. since you obviously don't support FTA or IKS... all your about is scare tactics.... which no one believes your propaganda..

[papiti]

i have to say...

6 months ago neo was trying to scare everyone away from IKS.. and now he's trying to scare everyone away from FTA... i just think neo, you have nothing better to do.. all your predictions have been far off......haha.. you told me the fbi would be knocking at my door for using the nfusion..... your statements hold no water.. you are just a conspiracy theorist... again.... we will see if the bull crap you write will every come true!! i would be willing to put my life savings on the fact that you are completely WRONG and full of it....


maybe you should get off these fta websites.. since you obviously don't support FTA or IKS... all your about is scare tactics.... which no one believes your propaganda..
:drunk: THERE YOU GO!! DITO

[snakefistgungfu]

again you are completely missing the point... BECAUSE Fta has the abilty to be hacked/ circumvent encryption the makers have a larger burden to make sure that they do NOT sell, release, have stolen, ANY firmware source code that can be used to do said things...
just be them, ahem.."Letting and employee steal it" they can be sued and found guilty of promoting piracy..does'nt matter who makes the bin, they did not control their own source and allowed it to happen...
adn to pile on, once an illegal bin was released, they did not take immediate steps to have said illegal bin's removed or the source code that was leaked destroyed..
They have that legal responsibility.. they can't just release it and say, oh well, not my problem..that's why you do not see them releasing the source to the public..

Oh and FTA's absolutely do not need to be flashable.. as new sats are added, you can manually add them iva the interface, so it is more than a bit disingenuous to claim otherwise...



If what you say is right then DN could have been sued years ago by TV stations because there Smart card crack was leaked online. I mean there is no way the "someone in my company did it" would hold up in court right?

The fact is the FTA boxes are made to be use for FTA TV and just because it CAN be used for wrong doing dose not make it Illegal. It would have been gone long ago if that was the case cause DN has tried its best. Now IKS is def another story and any box using it could be under fire soon. Any hardware that has a good use is hard to make illegal because it has a purpose beyond doing wrong. I mean a computer can do very Illegal things but it also can be used in accordance with the law.

[neo_waxworks]

If what you say is right then DN could have been sued years ago by TV stations because there Smart card crack was leaked online. I mean there is no way the "someone in my company did it" would hold up in court right?

The fact is the FTA boxes are made to be use for FTA TV and just because it CAN be used for wrong doing dose not make it Illegal. It would have been gone long ago if that was the case cause DN has tried its best. Now IKS is def another story and any box using it could be under fire soon. Any hardware that has a good use is hard to make illegal because it has a purpose beyond doing wrong. I mean a computer can do very Illegal things but it also can be used in accordance with the law.


all the major FTA Makers HAVE been sued though..
and yes, Dish has had stations drop them because of piracy.. why do you think you can't get NFL Sunday ticket for example, on dish?? Bev had to guarantee they would keep it secure or they were in jeopardy of losing it as well (Which is why they started separate provider ID's and using emm-s to update the keys

the difference between FTA and other hardware with legitimate use, is that FTA Control's their own source code..
Take DVR's for example.. yes people hack them, BUT the makers do everything under the sun, including updates to keep them from doing it....hence they are using good faith to at least try to stop illegal use.. FTA makers on the other hand, sell or give away the primary tool for hackers to use to pirate, the source code.. they do not even have the open source excuse as they do not release it open source...

Are there legit uses for FTA?? Sure, but that doesn't mean the makers are doing their part to discourage piracy, that they are REQUIRED to do.. under the DMCA

People that think Dish or Bev do not have a case are dellusional

[dirtbag]

I think that if Dish or Bev had a leg to stand on here
they would have already done something about it,
corporations like these have top legal advisors,
or at least you would think they would have.

[neo_waxworks]

I think that if Dish or Bev had a leg to stand on here
they would have already done something about it,
corporations like these have top legal advisors,
or at least you would think they would have.

So having all the major FTA makers sued isn't doing something about it???
Investigating for 2 years, getting names of coders and the recent busts isn't doing something???

[dirtbag]

Winning a few battles does not win the war,
but I do see your point, Their only slowing
down the train, their not completly stopping it.

[catanddog123]

the people at norw it all a stage by dn is this true

[Fallen Angel]

Also, here is the first copy of the complaint:
And there are websites named...I'll let you draw your own conclusions from this.....



FA

[HotDogTLW]

:beer:Hmmmm. great info, FA, gettin a little close to home, lol......Dog

[snakefistgungfu]

This guy really got off easy if you ask me. He might want to get a new residence in another country but that should not be a problem because he is the first hacker to unlock the G3 card. Wow you know dish is pissed they cant prove Viewtec has there hands on anything.

[neo_waxworks]

got off easy??? he hasn't even been to trial yet...