IKS

[dirtbag]

How long do you think it will be before
they start cracking down on the iks
servers? just curious, any ideas?

[skyview]

they have been trying since 2007 or maybe longer

nfusion has been up since 2007 for sure,,and there still up.....

[imthedoc]

Why doesn't everyone switch to this "IKS{ whatever it is

Is it HD?

[fernvick]

Some fear the Ip issue they might be able to trace you! Yes, Iks Hd receivers are available most brands have HD Stbs

[snakefistgungfu]

The fact is that IKS is risky and if DN and DTV put enough effort into it they could shut it down but right now getting rid of standalones is the main goal.

[Chameleon]

Cracking down on IKS servers is a difficult endeavor for the providers. Attacking it from a technical side is a definate possibility though. It will be interesting to see where the cat and mouse game goes next.

Remember that you should do all you can to protect yourself if you're gonna play the game.

[dirtbag]

Even if you don't have a static ip address, most
isp's log the ip assigned to you when you log on,
something else to ponder.... :headwall:

[Chameleon]

Heh, I used to work at an ISP. There are logs of EVERYTHING. :eek:

We retained logs for 60-90 days. I could tell you what site you were surfing at any given second.

[dirtbag]

My point exactly, I'll stay away from IKS....:smoke:

[Chameleon]

My point exactly, I'll stay away from IKS....:smoke:

There are ways to secure yourself though. You'll be seeing more on this soon.

[fernvick]

Heh, I used to work at an ISP. There are logs of EVERYTHING. :eek:

We retained logs for 60-90 days. I could tell you what site you were surfing at any given second.

What about proxy servers ???

[Chameleon]

What about proxy servers ???

Proxy servers are better than nothing, but they don't secure your connection on the ISP end.

I have no idea what the providers will or won't do, but with a court order, an ISP could easily determine all users connecting repeatedly to a specific IP address like an IKS server.. This has been done in P2P, mp3, and torrent cases.

Think about who the largest ISP in Canada is....and the fact that they own ExpressVu. Would the even need a court order? Probably not...

[fernvick]

Thanks for the Info.

[snakefistgungfu]

Heh, I used to work at an ISP. There are logs of EVERYTHING. :eek:

We retained logs for 60-90 days. I could tell you what site you were surfing at any given second.



They more then likely log Router mac addresses also and thats what will get you caught. Really thats on both ends cause its has been said the Slinger section that they log Macs so if DN or any other company can get in the middle then they have all they need to send out letters of bad intent. If IKS is second tier to standalones then i would say its risky if its the only thing then I would say your better have a strong comp background cause your will be in trouble if not.

[eliaselias86]

wht the problem.. is you have a router ahead your iks ... you only gonna receive local ip..
no one could know your public ip add.. although the would know your public ip ... this is changing a lot of times in the day..

[snakefistgungfu]

Proxy servers are better than nothing, but they don't secure your connection on the ISP end.

I have no idea what the providers will or won't do, but with a court order, an ISP could easily determine all users connecting repeatedly to a specific IP address like an IKS server.. This has been done in P2P, mp3, and torrent cases.

Think about who the largest ISP in Canada is....and the fact that they own ExpressVu. Would the even need a court order? Probably not...



This is what is gonna happen if IKS gets really popular. Also after DN can establish that there is no other use for IKS then to steal there product then it will be made illegal. This storm is just brewing and its gonna prob end like the P2P one did. Thats why I hope box makers will keep making standalones because of the safety.

[njoytheview]

I'm waiting for the good folks here to provide quality fixes.

[camaro81]

so sre the slingers dangerous too then? they hook up to the net right



HEREs a question i use wireless inernet from my neighbours house would this make me safe if they ever did come to the ip adrress. he has a dish too so they would just think it's him. haha

[Chameleon]

wht the problem.. is you have a router ahead your iks ... you only gonna receive local ip..
no one could know your public ip add.. although the would know your public ip ... this is changing a lot of times in the day..

Yes, they will know your public IP. Your ISP keeps a log of who is using what IP at any given time. It leads right back to your door.

[dirtbag]

Thanks for confirming that Chameleon....:thumbup1:

[snakefistgungfu]

so sre the slingers dangerous too then? they hook up to the net right



HEREs a question i use wireless inernet from my neighbours house would this make me safe if they ever did come to the ip adrress. he has a dish too so they would just think it's him. haha



Slingers are IKS also. They would trace it back to your friends house if they came calling but if he knows you use his WiFi Im sure he is not gonna stand in there way of finding you. The only way that works is if no one knows your connected and just remember that's a crime also.

[neo_waxworks]

Slingers are IKS also. They would trace it back to your friends house if they came calling but if he knows you use his WiFi Im sure he is not gonna stand in there way of finding you. The only way that works is if no one knows your connected and just remember that's a crime also.

they'd search, see he has wireless and no hacking equip.. then next thing they would do is look at the neighbors, anyone with a dish , call it in for the warrent...
next thing you know, they bust you for not only hacking sat, but also for stealing internet service...

[Fallen Angel]

Don't know the validity of this, but it's a C&P from another site:

C&P (Thanks to HeyRube)

I thought I'd preempt the IKS BS that will eventually drone out this discussion, by saying:

IKS is 100% safe in America because IKS packets are not illegal. They don't contain anything that is illegal or copyrighted. IKS is moot. An FTA box illegal? Closer, but no cigar. The thing that is illegal, according to the DMCA, is when you sit your fat ass down on that sofa and watch decrypted content you did not pay for. When you do that, you violate the content's copyright, hence the DMCA. Nothing you do before that is illegal. You are the criminal, Skippy. Not your hardware. The Court of Appeals has ruled. There are no more appeals. It is the law of the land now. They must PROVE you watched the content without paying for it. Period.

Even if the law changed, and you were swept up...so what. The worst they can do is send you a demand letter. They do that to verify your address. You have the right to remain silent. So throw the demand letter in the trash. That will be the end of story. We have thousands and thousands of Dave demand letters to go by. Throw them in the trash, and forget all about it. Never respond. If you do respond, you will pay the extorted amount. Period. You will not outtalk a lawyer. Not over the phone. Or in the courtroom. Never respond.

IKS can be made even safer than 100%. It can be made 1000% safe. Only in America.

How? Make use of one of the handful of SSH accounts you have already established (go do it now), and "tunnel" through it. The end result is that not only is the entire tcp stream encrypted to your ISP (they can't see anything but SSH data) but also that the IP actually communicating with the IKS server is a 3rd party host.

Where do you get one of these SSH accounts? They are alot more common than you might think.. Even cheesy web hosting accounts come with SSH access or in a worst case scenario, if you don't already have one, there are tons of providers out there for only a buck or two a month... ( sh3lls is one company that has gigE servers all over the world for you to choose from.)

This is better than using some public proxy or TOR because it will be more stable and faster than either of those would be.

Get this: Bitvise Tunnelier (Freeware)
And this: Raysmith's BlackRock app.
Set it up.

When you're done, you've got completely encrypted communcation to your private server, and are using that server to communicate with svftaiks.com (4 example). Why, that's just like a private tunnel directly to the IKS server, no? Yes. And your ISP is none the wiser? Nope. Having the skill to do that could come in handy later on, for other things, perhaps

That, my friends, for the sake of this argument, is...the end. That cannot be beat. You cannot beat it. Period.

I still say, nah, I don't need it. But for the absolutely paranoid, and there are a lot of us, errr, them out there, that should make you feel safer.

[neo_waxworks]

well I can 100% for certain say it is BS, cause this line "The Court of Appeals has ruled. There are no more appeals. It is the law of the land now. They must PROVE you watched the content without paying for it. Period." is 100% BS
thats someone trying to make IKS users FEEL safe....
The IKS stream, if you want to call it that, does indeed contain copyrighted information, it contains the Control words used to decrypt audio/video for each channel. They may try to dress them up, xor them with a a number, hash them together, but does change the fact that it DOES contain them. it is used for one purpose, decrypting Dish networks signal, which in America, HAS been ruled on and found to be 100% Illegal. the DCMA says you can't not, in ANY way, illegally decrypt, assist to decrypt, reverse engineer, etc.. any signal you do not have authorization to do so...IKS servers supplying Control words falls under the assist to decrypt catagory...

[Chameleon]

I thought I'd preempt the IKS BS that will eventually drone out this discussion, by saying:


IKS is 100% safe in America because IKS packets are not illegal. They don't contain anything that is illegal or copyrighted. IKS is moot. An FTA box illegal? Closer, but no cigar. The thing that is illegal, according to the DMCA, is when you sit your fat ass down on that sofa and watch decrypted content you did not pay for. When you do that, you violate the content's copyright, hence the DMCA. Nothing you do before that is illegal. You are the criminal, Skippy. Not your hardware. The Court of Appeals has ruled. There are no more appeals. It is the law of the land now. They must PROVE you watched the content without paying for it. Period.
As far as the DMCA goes, it is not nearly this cut and dry. The DMCA criminalizes the act of circumventing an access control, whether or not there is actual infringement of copyright itself. Is the guy watching his nFusion going to get slapped with a DMCA charge? Highly unlikely. It's going to be the ones "enabling" the guy to watch his nFusion that will be charged. But don't think for a minute that IKS doesn't violate US law. The control words in the IKS packet most certainly contain copyrighted material. Doesn't matter if you hacked it or nFusion, Slinger, or whoever hacked it. You are using them to circumvent an access control device. A clear violation of the DMCA.

Even if the law changed, and you were swept up...so what. The worst they can do is send you a demand letter. They do that to verify your address. You have the right to remain silent. So throw the demand letter in the trash. That will be the end of story. We have thousands and thousands of Dave demand letters to go by. Throw them in the trash, and forget all about it. Never respond. If you do respond, you will pay the extorted amount. Period. You will not outtalk a lawyer. Not over the phone. Or in the courtroom. Never respond.Wow, I don't think I'd be taking this legal advice. Dave's letters in most states were civil law suits. The procedural details vary from state to state, but rest assured, you will be served and the plaintiff will win by default if you just ignore it. A judgment will be entered against the you. I don't know if the providers will go down this road again because of the crap it stirred up last time and the questionable legality of such a campain, but if they do, sticking your head in the sand and hoping it goes away tain't gonna work. You'll lose and you'll owe $$$.


IKS can be made even safer than 100%. It can be made 1000% safe. Only in America.

How? Make use of one of the handful of SSH accounts you have already established (go do it now), and "tunnel" through it. The end result is that not only is the entire tcp stream encrypted to your ISP (they can't see anything but SSH data) but also that the IP actually communicating with the IKS server is a 3rd party host.
[
Where do you get one of these SSH accounts? They are alot more common than you might think.. Even cheesy web hosting accounts come with SSH access or in a worst case scenario, if you don't already have one, there are tons of providers out there for only a buck or two a month... ( sh3lls is one company that has gigE servers all over the world for you to choose from.)

This is better than using some public proxy or TOR because it will be more stable and faster than either of those would be.

Get this: Bitvise Tunnelier (Freeware)
And this: Raysmith's BlackRock app.
Set it up.

When you're done, you've got completely encrypted communcation to your private server, and are using that server to communicate with svftaiks.com (4 example). Why, that's just like a private tunnel directly to the IKS server, no? Yes. And your ISP is none the wiser? Nope. Having the skill to do that could come in handy later on, for other things, perhaps

Ding, ding, ding. First thing in this post with any sense. Although I'd say more like 99.5% safe. And there is the problem of getting your IKS receiver to talk through the tunnel. Easy for a PC - not so easy for a STB. But it can be done with some advanced networking knowledge.

But for you networking newbies, there are a couple products coming out very soon that will accomplish the same as above, but much easier for the normal guy to set up. Virtually plug and play IKS protection...

[snakefistgungfu]

The Fact is IKS is excactly what it says it is. Internet "KEY" sharing. You cannot share your Sattilte with anyone elese because of Copyrights no matter if you payed for it or not. I dont think that right but its the law and they can sue you ass for it. This is just like buying stolen goods. No you might not have stole them but you are contributing to the market of theft. If your in bankrupy or 100,000 or more in dept then dont worry about using your IKS cause whats another 100,000 but if you are not I would say you better show up for court cause I have got Defalt jugements on people and not showing up pisses the Judges off. What could be stetted for a few Ks most of the time ends up being 100K or more. Its your choice but Know you are playing in a thunderstorm and you might doge a few lighting bolts but all it takes is ONE.

[dexterguy]

Just to elaborate a bit on what’s mentioned in this thread. I am not going to talk about the legal issue, I am no lawyer and I have no clue what the legal standing for this issue is. Also if I disagree with anyone here, I do not mean that in any disrespect at all, I just believe I could help by adding few comments here..

I work as a security engineer in one of the largest ISPs in the country and I can say the following..

- Using HTTP proxy --> Will not help, your IP will be exposed, your end destination and your IP will still be encapsulated within the packet being sent to and from the proxy server. Data is transported in clear text, so yes, with some advanced techniques on your ISP side, they can tell what IP address you are using (the matter of having a static or dynamic IP is irrelevant – explained below), the destination IP address (which in this case is the IKS server) and what data has been requested and being received. So, basically, you are not by any means protecting yourself by using an HTTP proxy here.

- Using HTTPS proxy --> I am not sure which of the available FTA receivers support that or not, but even if it does, this will only help in encrypting the data within the packet, so the ISP will not be able to know what data is being sent to the destination, BUT the ISP will still be able to tell what your IP is and the destination IP is, so they can still flag you as an end-station communicating with a suspicious destination (in case they have the IKS server in the suspicious destination list), but they cannot technically tell what information you are sending to or receiving from the IKS servers. But really, why would you communicate with an IKS server?! :)

- Using dynamic IPs --> Are you serious? Do you think this will really protect you? Whether you are using a dial-up or DSL, the chances are that your IP will change at least a few times a day, but guess what, as Chameleon just mentioned, ISPs keep extensive logs on which IP connected to which access server (the dial-up server you connect to) or DSLAM (in a non-technical term, you can call it the DSL Server) at what time using what user and hence get your information. We used to run scripts on specific IP addresses with specific timestamps to get access information and identify users. So, dynamic or static doesn’t matter, it is just another extra work the ISP will have to do to get you. If you have static IP your IP won’t ever change, and it becomes less work on your ISP and if you have cable, unless you leave your connection offline for a day or more (depending on the lease time of your IP), the chances are that your IP will remain the same for months if not years.

- Using tunneling --> As FA has mentioned above, this may be the most secured, you will have to have a third party server somewhere to reforward your packets to the destination. I am not going to get into the technicalities and the different types of tunneling, etc and when to encrypt and what not, simply, since SSH has been mentioned here, I could safely say that SSH packets will be encrypted, but what will happen is that the server you are tunneling across is the one that will be exposed, not your IP, now if this server is a managed server on the internet in the USA/Canada, that won’t help much, cause the owners of that server will be able to extract the connection logs from their side to point the finger at you and protect themselves.

Now you have it.. whichever you believe is risky or not will be up to your own judgment. Hope this helps!

[Chameleon]

Just to elaborate a bit on what’s mentioned in this thread. I am not going to talk about the legal issue, I am no lawyer and I have no clue what the legal standing for this issue is. Also if I disagree with anyone here, I do not mean that in any disrespect at all, I just believe I could help by adding few comments here..

I work as a security engineer in one of the largest ISPs in the country and I can say the following..

- Using HTTP proxy --> Will not help, your IP will be exposed, your end destination and your IP will still be encapsulated within the packet being sent to and from the proxy server. Data is transported in clear text, so yes, with some advanced techniques on your ISP side, they can tell what IP address you are using (the matter of having a static or dynamic IP is irrelevant – explained below), the destination IP address (which in this case is the IKS server) and what data has been requested and being received. So, basically, you are not by any means protecting yourself by using an HTTP proxy here.

- Using HTTPS proxy --> I am not sure which of the available FTA receivers support that or not, but even if it does, this will only help in encrypting the data within the packet, so the ISP will not be able to know what data is being sent to the destination, BUT the ISP will still be able to tell what your IP is and the destination IP is, so they can still flag you as an end-station communicating with a suspicious destination (in case they have the IKS server in the suspicious destination list), but they cannot technically tell what information you are sending to or receiving from the IKS servers. But really, why would you communicate with an IKS server?! :)

- Using dynamic IPs --> Are you serious? Do you think this will really protect you? Whether you are using a dial-up or DSL, the chances are that your IP will change at least a few times a day, but guess what, as Chameleon just mentioned, ISPs keep extensive logs on which IP connected to which access server (the dial-up server you connect to) or DSLAM (in a non-technical term, you can call it the DSL Server) at what time using what user and hence get your information. We used to run scripts on specific IP addresses with specific timestamps to get access information and identify users. So, dynamic or static doesn’t matter, it is just another extra work the ISP will have to do to get you. If you have static IP your IP won’t ever change, and it becomes less work on your ISP and if you have cable, unless you leave your connection offline for a day or more (depending on the lease time of your IP), the chances are that your IP will remain the same for months if not years.

- Using tunneling --> As FA has mentioned above, this may be the most secured, you will have to have a third party server somewhere to reforward your packets to the destination. I am not going to get into the technicalities and the different types of tunneling, etc and when to encrypt and what not, simply, since SSH has been mentioned here, I could safely say that SSH packets will be encrypted, but what will happen is that the server you are tunneling across is the one that will be exposed, not your IP, now if this server is a managed server on the internet in the USA/Canada, that won’t help much, cause the owners of that server will be able to extract the connection logs from their side to point the finger at you and protect themselves.

Now you have it.. whichever you believe is risky or not will be up to your own judgment. Hope this helps!

Great post! :drunk:

[wordet]

Who got busted for using IKS